Walking up the driveway yesterday a wounded seagull walked in front of us, it flapped its wings but didn't seem able to fly. Instead it scuttled along worriedly and branched off before our entrance. Overhead another seagull cried out, continually, and it kept going through the night.
This morning the injured seagull was waiting just a few steps away from our door, the other one had apparently left after staying watch through the night. It was battered and bloody... due to the previous days injury? Or maybe due to a nightly scuffle with one of the neighboring cats? People really shouldn't let cats roam free, those vicious creatures, who play with their prey rather than put an end to their agony.
Now this bird's been sitting in the garden all day. We have a tiny garden here, just a patch of grass between the house (the kitchen) and the shed, with a fence on one side, and the walkway and a fence on the other. I suppose it's a suitably harbored area, a sort of plateau at the edge of a row of turquoise houses - hovering over the street. A good retreat for an injured bird.
The first time I walked out it flapped its wings in a short-lived frenzy, and it looked as if the injured wing might as well fall off. It's been pecking at the injured wing, trying to shake it off, but if it manages that then what future would it have, devoid of flight? Could it have a future at all, with this apparently quite brutal wing injury? Occasionally it strolls away, shaking the wing, but soon comes back to the garden.
Killing the bird would be one option, calling a vet another (but potentially costly - and also potentially pointless) one, calling a voluntary organization that takes care of injured animals is another, the latter which I have done. They have no nearby representatives however and have not yet responded, so, I am attempting to focus on everyday work while this mostly incredibly tranquil critter slowly dies at the stoop of our doorstep. It's kind of depressing.
What would you do?
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Fucking cats man, i hate them, and everyone else loves them because the bastards look cute...
I would call a vet, is not really that costly, and well in my case i guess i have a good relation with the vet of my dog so yeah.
But lets say that calling a vet is not an option, and the voluntary org is not responding, then well, i would take it inside see what could be done, then after fucking things up i will kill it, or maybe it goes well... anyway that would only happen if i grow sympathetic enough of the bird, chances are that i would feel nothing be seeing the guy there agonizing in front of my house.
Yeah, they look so fluffy and fantastic, but if you look into their eyes you'll see the darkness of their souls! Well maybe not when they're kittens, but as they grow old and bold and start with their holds and mind control. O_o
You'd really take in a seagull? These birds are pretty large you know! Even with a wounded wing I'm not sure it'd let anyone get close to it, or put it in a box, or carry it indoors.... and if it does I don't know what we'd do with it. A broken wing doesn't really heal by itself.:/ How would you kill it if you had to?
About vets, the thing is if they can't help it they'll just kill it anyway, and that'd cost me at least $20... got some advice from another Q&A place I sent a message to btw, they adviced me to either contact that one organization I'd already contacted (they responded, said they usually put the bird in a box and let it rest... but didn't seem interested in taking care of it) or contact the police and have them take care of it (IOW kill it). Anyway I haven't seen the bird today, might be dead; eaten already...
Have you ever listen to a pair of cats mating in the middle of the night? you instantly stop thinking that those little beast have anything remotely cute...
First i would try to heal it, we have some bandages and sticks, alcohol to disinfect the wound, carrying it inside wont really be a problem, and my dog is actually quite good around other animals, the problem would be to make it so the bird would remain quite and calm while is disinfect, bandage, and immobilize the wing, if i actually manage to get that far i may as well give it some food until it gets better, and that could take some money.
Ok but lets say that failed, i would take a knife and decapitate the bird, not the first time i have seen it done, with the right amount of fierce and with the neck in place against a kitchen table the whole thing cuts really fast and clean, i have never done it myself, so seeing my granddad killing a chicken is not the same as doing it myself, but i can do it, after all i already took all the trouble i could, and i did had a bunch of options to help it and failed.
20$ and they wont be able to cure a bird with a wounded wing? really what the hell that is a robbery!
A box and some rest? man... and there i was wasting bandages alcohol, water, and even wood! XD
Uhuh. I can't say I have! We might have some unnaturally silent cats in our surrounding realm then. :P Wild cats!
You sound like a pro man. I wouldn't know how to angle the wing or anything, and that keeping-it-quite-and-calm seems like the biggest problem. I mean what if it jumps out of the box and shits on our carpet? That'd cost more than a vet... would be handy to have a cage for situations like this, could lure it in with a little food and then... take it to a better place. Like someone who knows what to do with it. We don't have any other pets btw, haven't really grown up around animals other than sheep and turtles.
You'd decapitate the bird indoors - on a kitchen table?! I'm thinking you might get some nasty blood splatter in that kitchen... haven't had that close encounters with decapitated chickens myself, last time I saw one was in Babel (the movie). VicariousE adviced shooting it, but it's kinda difficult attaining a firearm over here. :P Well it's great if you have what it takes if it's neccesary. I stopped and killed a half-dead snake by the road once, but that's about it...
Yeah I looked up nearby vets, and the cheapest one took $20 as a base fee. :/ So, that's the minimum; if they actually do something it's bound to cost a lot more. No charity work here...
lol, well I didn't get the impression they understood the severity of the situation... even when I sent them the picture. Maybe you don't actually see how broken that wing is on the picture, only when it moves around. It's really nothing just rest could heal.
Lucky you!
Well i have seen a couple of birds being taken care off, so it not really all that complex, of course the proper thing to do would be to take it to the vet, but i doubt that i would ever grow to care enough to even worry about the bird to begin with XD.
The kitchen has plenty of space near the sink to even try that on my dog (not that i would ever do it), so yeah, and they don't bleed that much, so cleaning is not really the issue, is actually doing it that can be troublesome. Shooting it? not worth it, it will get me in too much trouble with the neighborhood, my mom, and we don't have any guns anyways XD, plus is a waste of ammo (video game mentality).
Vets working for the money, and not for the love of animal well being? Sweden is really the land of money XD.
The picture indeed doesn't shows how bad the bird is, and blood has a tendency to be exaggerate things.
I guess so. XD
Whaaat, you'd just leave a bird with a broken wing outside your door? If it hadn't walked up to our door I probably wouldn't be posting so much about it, but it's like it sought our assistance and we didn't do anything, ah well... btw, those birds taken care of, was that at the vets?
lol, that video game mentality... I think that lack of guns is the real problem though! The benefit of a shot would be you can do it from a distance, you don't need to hold the bird down or let it become aware you're about to kill it. I think. Could have a bowl of crackers or something to distract it. But this is all a bit irrelevant now...
Yeah, look at what it's becoming! This used to be an ideal place, an oasis where we helped all those in need, yet we see what helping breeds, you feed and feed their greed... we really need to turn this trend around, re-evaluate human values; realize: you don't need a reason to help.
Mmm, when it flapped around that wing looked like it was about to fall off. Should've taken some video footage too. Actually I should've just helped the bird and not bothered to document the whole incident damnit!
"you’d just leave a bird with a broken wing outside your door?"
Yes... it has nothing to do with me...
Both my grandpa, and in school twice, it was a neat way to skip class and learn something, and by that i mean helping with he bird, not... well you know we had nothing to do with those birds getting injured, we just helped them, we are innocent.
Firing a gun just to kill a bird in the middle of the day? are you crazy!? XD, well actually the time doesn't really matter, is an urban zone you need better reason that that if you want to get trigger happy.
Preach it bro!
True that hahaha.
With a clear conscious? Without regret? That 'it has nothing to do with me' is a way to justify pretty much anything. Not helping a bird isn't really that intense an example, but that's what I mean with: you don't need a reason to help! I think that same way way too much, when I know it'd be a benefit both to myself and whatever it is that doesn't have anything to do with me (as in - somebody getting hurt, etcetc) if I stepped up.
Ah, that's... wait, not helping the bird? Or you did help the bird? Getting a bit confused there..
Well if you don't have a silencer, I hear there are some guides on how to make one online. :P Yeah, it probably wouldn't be the best idea...
Yeah! Woo! This is my planetary OLO motto.
Yep i can ignore animals and people in need, without guilt, regret and with a clear consciousness, in that aspect i am just like most people, the difference may be that i admit it, i am a bastard, if is not directly linked to me i ignore it.
I already went and came back from thinking of the benefits of helping the homeless and found out what the only real difference is , if i can do it in a scale enough with help of a governmental plan, my mom is a social worker you see, and in the big scale even taking them to a home shelter (that may or not be linked with the state) is already a huge consumption of time and resources plus it takes a certain level of social interaction that i am not really willing to invest. I warm you what comes next is long, is preachy, and is real, is my knowledge on how to really help a homeless person, and is part of the explanation of why i am a desensitized bastard, fell free to skip this text.
But lets say i do, i take them to that institution that attends the homeless, as the one that knows what to do, is my duty to not only take them to the door, but also explain them what they need to tell them as well as what they must expect, there will be plenty of time for this because i would most probably be explaining this while we stand waiting in line, once he/she/them explains his situation they would learn that their situation will be solved only momentarily, they will be able to stay for a couple of months in an environment that may secure them food, shelter, and other basic needs, like a bath, in this time they are expected to do other things, like finding a job, and a house of their own, the shelter may help them with this, but they also may try to exploit them, as the one in possession of the info, is my duty to seek that this particular institution will not exploit them, that if it does not, it also has a good program to help them with a life project, and if it does not... you know what i have to do now? have some minutes to think what comes next, have in mind, REMEMBER you are now in the role of a person that truthfully wants to help this/these homeless person(s), so what comes next? don't worry you don't have to write an answer, and if you did please delete that answer, it is all a mental question, you may voice your say after i finish my explanation, anyway, what comes next is to take them to the institution which actual function is to accommodate and give jobs to the citizens, i have to take them to a governmental institution, once there they will ask a bunch of info from both me and them, contact info, id, circumstances, etc. once that solved (assuming that making them attend us was fast and smoothly which never is btw), i have to see that whatever plan the government official had for him/she is actually plausible, and then i may as well take them back to the shelter, it ends there? farewells to never see him/her again? if i am being this responsible it doesn't ends there, i give them my phone number so they can call me if shit happens latter on.
You may say: Doomroar, you treat them like vulnerable, incompetent defenseless babies, unable to live in society, and i have to agree that it sounds that way, but it is not, all the steps that i just described are plagued with people that neglect their work, and also with people that abuse their position and authority, not only that the person that you are helping may not even want your help, so a little convincing may take please before you even start considering taking them to a shelter, and this is assuming that the homeless person you found is actually a cool person, and not a crazy hobo asshole that may even try to get more than it should from your help.
And all these are just basic problems, there is a myriad of shit that would be too long to explain.
You see? and that is to help one person, only one, and is highly possible that without proper guidance the person may give up half way and return to indigence the moment you and he separate.
It takes vocation to help these persons, and i don't have it.
It takes hearth, and mine is not even near to being that big nor warm.
It takes a trust on people that i don't have.
And it takes time that i sincerely neither have nor am willing to spend.
Or i can give them 5 dollars, and convince myself, hey i helped a man to have lunch... that is nice, right? RIGTH? sure you brightened his day, congratulations! he will be there tomorrow, hungry, no dinner, no breakfast, awaiting to have lunch for a second day... probably cold, probably fucking sweating, and smelling like a hobo, because it is a hobo! and depending on the kind of homeless, those 5 dollars could have been spend on cheap crack mixed with brick dust, and when i say brick i mean brick the ones used in construction.
Then again, i am a bastard, i can ignore them and don't feel bad about it, i also know what to do to help them, and i don't do it, and i also know that if i want to help them i have to go and talk with the ones that control the city, that is town hall, and inform myself of what plans they have to solve indigence, if i see it as inefficient i have to now propose something of my own or search for what other alternatives are being proposed, and then gather or help gathering support to make it an official program... if is approved, i may as well see if the program success now...
But Doomroar, such an exaggeration! no, that is how change is done, and that is what it is needed, no fucking 5 dollars, no fucking "hey go to that direction they will help you", no "hey i give you a ride to this shelter they will help you", neither of those are really helping anyone, because all of those are partial or ineffective solutions, with the best of them all lasting for only a couple of months, if they decide to follow the shelter program, and who knows what kind of program that may be.
Bu-but, but they will fell grateful for your help! and they will feel good, and you will feel goo- no! i wont be feeling good, because i know that i am not doing enough, and i don't care if i do feel good, that is beyond the point, or if they feel good, or if they are grateful, they will be hobos again after 2 to 3 months.
Not only that a great man once said that you don't need a reason to help.
But forget about that, remember i am a bastard, and by now it may sound like i am not, it may sound like i really care about the social problem that is indigence, no i don't, i am a bastard, i already spend time thinking about my personal selfish benefits at the ends of that process, in case that it ever success, and they all have nothing to little to do with me, feels good to help? that is not motivation enough, people will be happy? deep down i hate people, their happiness is indifferent to me, i study a human science, yes, but because i want to know about myself, down the line i also get to know about others, but that is not the main thing behind what made me change careers, people will be grateful to me? so what? that is along the lines of you will be feeling good, sure the social prestige that i will gain would be huge, but i am not interested into increasing my social capital in such a field or context, from here on, there is a long list of effects, that affect me in a variety of ways, and most of those take too long and are too indirect for me to really think that i am doing all this just to make them a reality, one is all the side effects that come with a solution to indigence, they all are good, and important in a working society, but for me to start reaping the products of that, it would take too much time, and effort, i need to graduate first and get a job (be a part of society, a student is partially look down by society like a parasite, just an investment until it gets a job, and finally joins the thing) before i can even start savoring the real face of a city without indigence, assuming that the new work force is actually helping into a resurrection of the local economy...
Sigh, so yeah... i am not altruistic, and i don't see selfish motivations that would make me help them, and i am talking about humans here, for birds... you can be sure that they will bleed themselves to death in front of my door, maybe if is a rare bird i may do something...
Back to where we were, yeah i will not help the bird, firing a weapon entails too much trouble, and i don't care enough to begin with.
Man this message is so long, and this doesn't even explains why i am able to ignore people XD.
Holy Wall-E look at the size of that message!! O_o
Well it does sound like you do care, but I'm not trying to cast blame here for not trying to do something that'd be impossible to do - or in your case aim for such large-scale help that it would be impossible to achieve... or not worth the time. As for that mental answer: welcome them into my home. And actualizing that trail of thought... I really wouldn't be prepared to do that. I wouldn't trust them enough. I might care enough, but I'd expect them to steal my stuff, or trash my house, or maybe be a threat to my personal health so... I wouldn't let anyone in. I don't even trust our second-door neighbors enough to let them in if no one's home (I mean leave them the key).
Yeah the process for helping the majority of these homeless people is probably a long and intense one, and since your mom works in that department I'm sure you know the trials and tribulations of it! There are addicts; hopeless cases, and syndicates and criminal organizations... but then there are also those who for some reason happen to have lost their home, like what happened with that recent global financial breakdown, and are actively trying to build their life back up again. If everybody just pitched in with a single dollar for them, that'd amount to a lot of money: they could get their shit together, get housing, get a job, get back on route. Filtering out the hopeful causes from all the other homeless people seems like an impossible task though, but wait... wasn't this about birds in the first place? When it comes to people the task is a much more difficult one. Birds don't need the same care, they don't eat as much food... they're not addicted to crack cocaine either. :P (well I hope not, that'd be crazy *idea for movie pops into mind*).
Aaaanyway, if you were a millionaire, would you reason differently you think? Is the lack of will linked to non-optimal living conditions, where personal time/well-being is a priority? I don't know where I'm going with this though... it all boils down to priorities, for me too; I chose to ignore the bird and focus on tasks at hand... but got distracted anyway. You seem a tad bit more disciplined in that aspect!
"But forget about that, remember i am a bastard, and by now it may sound like i am not, it may sound like i really care about the social problem that is indigence, no i don’t"
Look, there is a difference between knowing what to do, and actually doing it... And is not really impossible, not at all, it is just fucking tedious.
I don't remember when i said that you take them to your own home, each time i use the word "home" i'm referring to the shelter homes, or the eventual homes that they may get assigned by the government, if they get lucky (hahaha as if!).
My mom is a social worker, but her field is not related to homelessness or unemployment, however she is a good source of info regarding those issues.
Sure everyone donating a dollar may help a few persons to get their life together (not really, and also they need to be the right type of person), but that is not how it works man, be a little realistic here, you are thinking about making a fundraising to help a few persons, now what would take for such a thing to work? you will end making a charitable organisation to help the homeless, and those things already exist... even better they aim to more than just some dudes, the problem is that a lot of those are corrupt, that is why i said that you may as well see what kind of organisation you are taking that person you are trying to help (because i assume that you care, and want to help...).
Yeah, birds are way more easy to take care, but my point is, that i don't care about birds, for me a bird dying and a person dying is the same, well i probably would call an ambulance if i see a person dying, but that is about it. I see it coming already, "What you wont wait for the ambulance to arrive!?" goddammit man, you already know the answer to that question, no, i would keep going with my life.
If i was a millionaire would i reason differently? sure, if i was born a millionaire, into a rich household, then it is clear i would be even a bigger bastard, things like asking "what is needed to really help?" would have never taken place. If i become a millionaire, then my priorities would be to conserve my money, which mean even less time to care about social problems, maybe if i was a multimillionaire, i could have time to think and do things like that, even probably making it so i could use the prestige, the social and symbolic capitals gained from such a project to help me into launching a political career, attain political influence, raise even more in the class dynamics, control part of the political sphere of the country, yeah definitively i can already see my reasoning changing, i would not stop there i would use it and go further, and since i am the one financing those projects i get to oversee their success making strict laws against neglect and corruption,after all while is true that i may be helping the homeless, in the end i am helping my future in politics, is a perfect way to amass influence.
It seems that as a multimillionaire i gain more will to act, but this will is targeted towards something different.
Now i am curious if you were rich, how would you go with this?
Haha yeah, I read that part too! You don't sound like it though! :O
Ahh, those types of homes, well that's a way easier solution. Still tedious, but way easier.
Really, it would help - if they are the right type of person! It's like how crowd-funding works... yeah, most of the businesses who work with these things have become just that: businesses. Volunteers join up with grand visions and get corrupted. I'm not talking of starting an organization though, just small-scale actions of benevolence by a larger mass of people. That'd solve it all. If we could all tell who'd really use the help they get; who'd just buy dope for it, and if we all had a dollar to spare that we really wouldn't have used for something useful...
You must be a busy guy. :P
Woo, helping both the homeless and yourself at the same time! Sounds ideal. You'd get more resources to act too, along with the will, but man it seems like you see corruption in every facet of life; personal gain. Personally I wouldn't want to be a politician, I have zero respect for the people steering the way right now. A revolution might be a solution but war's never fun....
Hmm, if I was rich? Well first I'd invest in things of personal gain. Unless I had it already, I'd focus on buying up large amounts of property/land, aside from basic material wealth (like a car, and a better house). Honestly I'd probably spend most of my wealth on land, and keep doing so - masses of forests I'd buy to little or no profit; increase my wealth for this cause via selling/renting real-estate. Because forests are treated like shit over here. People buy up large masses of land, chop down the trees, and sell it on. I'd want to preserve that heritage and create a legacy at the same time, and in a worst case scenario (if I'm low on money) all that land would be worth a lot, and keep rising in value as the forests grow, it's a long-term investment both for personal and national gain.
As for helping people... I probably wouldn't do anything large-scale, but I'd like to surprise the occasional begger-that-seems-sympathetic-and-not-hooked-on-drugs-or-part-of-syndicate with something like a set of new clothes and a hundred dollars worth of meal coupons. Random acts of benevolence like that'd make me feel good and purposeful, and who knows, they might even make a change. As for birds, if possible I could buy up the KFV, the voluntary organization that takes care of hurt animals, and go in for a bit of an expansion, maybe run an ad campaign to make people aware of it; guide in new members. I have a ton of ideas for things like movies and computer games I'd be able to fund with larger amounts of money, but that's another matter...
Btw, one thing I'd certainly not do is send out large donations to charitable organizations, if help's to be given it'd have to be first hand or through people I trust, I don't trust any of the ones I know about.
I think i am misinterpreting you, you want to create a big mobilization of persons making small donations, that in the end will become one big donation, and then invest it in one hand picked person at a time? sure that may work, and will also took forever, assuming that you got a considerable amount of people to donate, and that the whole project remained without any corruption, you know what that reminds me more of a reality show, those rebuilding your home kind of shows.
Not really, i just don't care to see the whole thing through...
Haha you are as big a bastard as i! XD. Don't get me wrong, saving the natural reserves is nice and all, but those random small acts of "kindness" are a load of bullshit, the biggest purpose that they fulfill is to satiate your ego, to make you feel as if you are helping someone, save that money man.
Nice idea with the KFV, that may even help that org into expanding itself.
Haha i don't trust them neither, that is why if i was rich i would be the one overseeing the project.
Yeah, they do that type of thing on TV occasionally! I heard of a show (don't watch TV myself) where they went around and looked for random people to hand out a hundred thousand dollars to. Awesome way of making useful entertainment: funding donations via the viewers. :) And viewers could tip the crew too, show them who's really deserving of that reward.
I wasn't thinking of an organized movement, just saying if a lot of people pitch in just a penny a piece it'll be a bucket of money eventually!
I see through the whole thing!
Does satiating my ego and helping somebody at the same time make it wrong? I would help; I wouldn't be loosing much either (if I was a millionaire that'd be rent), so it's a win/win situation! Mmm, if I really had millions maybe I'd think of better and more benevolent ways to spend that money, no use really planning for it now - better plan for how to attain that wealth in the first place!
You see man, you do care! :P
Chump change though... is good to get that money, but is not a life changing thing, well if you are really, really wasted... i guess now you can say that you could start paying the deb from your new house... or that student deb... or, being more at ease while you get a job, but these are homeless... man everything is so expensive nowadays.
Ah then that is just fantasizing, even more than what we already are doing.
You gave him some clothes and money, how is that seeing through the whole thing? oh you mean you have x-ray vision haha, good pun.
The point is that, you are not really helping him, meal coupons (my bad i was under the wrong impression that you gave him money...) and a set of new clothes? dude, really? that is a misery even for me and i am not homeless, can i get a job with meal coupons? can i pay school? can i go to the doctor and pay him with meal coupons? can i pay rent with meal coupons? can i convince a landlord to rent me a room and that i will pay him the rent with my brand new meal coupons? XD.
Plus is not the job of random "kind" rich people to get me a house, job, and education, that should be the job of the government, to secure my safety, protect my right to all those things i lack, random rich guy cant give me that, and random rich guy is not going to help me to get that, neither is apparently interesting on telling me the process i need to follow to get close to getting that, he just gave me clothes and meal coupons... dude, you are making me feel like an actual kind person... haha.
Yupp, change for chumps, definitely. Well as they say all long journeys start with a single step, so maybe that'd be the step they need to take the rest of them. Yeah prices are rising on everything... cept food... it's strange how groceries haven't risen that much in price, but suddenly the yearly budget's being measured in billions rather than millions, numbers so big it's like they are just that: numbers. Does all this money really exist or are they mere figures on paper; bank accounts? I'm just waiting for it to crash.
I'm a dreamer indeed, that dreams of eventually achieving my dreams. ;)
lol
Normal people'd give homeless people a dollar, I think a hundred dollars worth of food and a maybe a hundred worth of clothes is quite an upgrade. With a set of clothes they'd look presentable; with food they'd be attentive, hopefully they'd have some change for anything else and get a headstart there. If I was homeless I'd definitely appreciate it! A hundred dollars in meal coupons should last a week. I haven't bought any new clothes in almost a year myself btw, maybe I'm basing these potential gifts on what I consider a lot right now... if I was rich, who knows.
Btw, meal coupons because = they can't be used for the wrong purposes. Or at least they're harder to use for the wrong purposes, course they could sell those for less... you could buy more food if you bought the base ingredients of course, but money's prone to abuse. If you're homeless you don't have rent! Giving enough to get housing; pay rent, that's a whole other level... preferably government level.
If the government really cared there wouldn't be any homeless people! For real. Especially now when the resources exist to combat all of these issues, and yet they spend it on all the wrong things. Yeah you seem kinda kinder than I might be if I had the resources to. :P
You crazy? food prices are crazy lately (if you want the normal stuff), affordable food comes with a bunch of preservatives and the normal food is a kick in the wallet, man is time to migrate into Sweden! XD.
But is not bad to add some... logistic to that dream, i mean other wise that dream is more of a fantasy.
Did you forgot? i already told you that giving them a dollar doesn't helps them... normal people are bastards, just as me, probably worse in their ignorance they are convinced that they are helping... plus even if they are "well presented" (i guess these are clean hobos) and well feed, they are still homeless! now they can carry a bunch of food coupons and clothes (lets say that you gave him a bag too, just for the sake of convenience) around with them, what start can they get if they don't have contact info? who will hire a homeless person? they get a job interview, and where will their employers contact them (in case that they decide to hire them)?
Man... read yourself, please, you distrust them so much, that you are willing to only give them access to a restricted use of currency, that can only be used to acquire food, not even toilet paper or soap, or a tooth brush, just food, they are in that position... you really expect them to do anything with that? come on, you can't really be convinced that they are going to improve with that, they live in the street! homeless! homeless!!!
But... i also agree "If you’re homeless you don’t have rent! Giving enough to get housing; pay rent, that’s a whole other level… preferably government level." that is why i tell you, again, meal coupons, a dollar, even a few thousand, all that is a waste of money, that in the end is not really helping, take them to an institution which job is to help them, indeed is the government the one that should be helping them, and that is why is so troublesome to really help them, because most governments are incompetent when it comes to this (i could go now into ways to pressure the gov into doing its job, but that would be too long, and apparently most hobos in Sweden are not even from Sweden, plus they seem to be doing way better than your normal hobo...).
Indeed the government doesn't care, but the same goes for us the people, we don't care neither, and if we don't care, then there is no pressure for the government to actually do its job.
In the hypothetical question of what i would do to help homeless people if i was rich, definitively, at least i wont be giving food coupons XD.
BTW talking about homeless persons, episodes 2 and 3 of this season of the boondocks are perfect for this theme, it really shows how much money a person that becomes broke would need to recuperate, and it goes far beyond thousands.
Maybe it's because we've always had considerably expensive food in Sweden compared to the rest of the world, so if the prices rise worldwide there's still a threshold to reach over here. ;) The only things that have had a bit of a drastic rise in price are butter and exotic fruits. Prices are crazily cheap in places like India though, a whole bucket full of mangos for a dollar, I wish I could just take a trip over there to buy groceries...
Isn't a dream a fantasy? Isn't a fantasy a dream?
Man I was just saying how a hundred dollars is a hundred times as much as the one dollar a normal person might give! I agree a single dollar really doesn't make a difference. Hmm, I guess they need to have a cellphone too. Fortunately you can get one of those for a few dollars second-hand, no problem.
Are you trying to make me give up my faith in humanity, the will of survival that flares brightly within every human soul? The simple acts of kindness that might be just what it takes to make a huge difference? I want to believe!
Mmm, I don't think taking a hobo to whatever government branch is in charge of hobo-care would make a change either, I'd rather just give that bundle of meal coupons and feel generous damnit. At least there is a lot of nature over here, so survival isn't as much of a problem for a competent hobo as it may be in other parts of the world.
What, you won't even give them a meal coupon man? :L
Guess I'd better watch a few episodes so I can argue over why it isn't so! I really don't think that much is required if you're smart about it. But then again, if they were smart maybe they wouldn't be a hobo...
Haha well it depends for example a barrel of gasoline in Venezuela cost a dollar, while their milk is insanely expensive, that is why their riots were so fierce, they calmed lately but still, it will take some time for them to recover.
No, a fantasy is a dream that has no way to become true, while a dream can become reality, so every fantasy is a dream, but not all dreams are fantasies. For example i have a fantasy of giant monsters walking the earth.
A hundred dollars is a hundred times better than one dollar, yes, that is true, but a hundred dollars doesn't really helps a homeless person out of the streets.
Nice now the is a hobo with a cellphone.... still a hobo though XD.
Partly yes, but i don't want to destroy your faith in humanity (which is quite low as it is, i mean meal coupons... really bro? really? that's some faith if i have ever seen one XD), but to crumble that structure that makes you think that as long as there is will everything will go well.
Wait, wait, fine, you don't believe in the competence of the government to solve part of their problems (like assigning them a job, health care, compensation, or the legal system to denounce the government when they fail to do their job), however you want them to pass from beggars, to survive as hunters/gatherers living in the wild? damn, are you a 60 year old rich conservative male?
Hell no, i am rich i can tell some of my underlings to take them to a home shelter when they can get 3 meals, but meh i don't care enough to even do that.
Go on give it a watch, hehehe.
They had riots over milk?! And I thought we had problems...
Ah, so there is a difference. Thin line between giant monsters walking the Earth and dreams! I bet back in the day they thought the world being round was just a fantasy.
lol, a hobo with the potential for FaceBook addiction and social adaption!
As long as there is will, everything WILL go well! But just my will isn't enough, the hobo on the receiving end of these meal coupons needs that willpower too. As long as you believe, you can do it! You can do anything! If you don't choose to stop then nobody can stop you!
We have don't a legal system to denounce the government, they're in control, and at the same time: they're out of control. I really have zero trust in the current regime. Man I just mean that people don't necessarily need an apartment for shelter - it'd be easy to put up a windbreak under a pine. And if they invest in a fishing rod they can get their own food while they figure things out, they can eat birch leaves and cow parsley (it's just like parsnip). There are no lethally venomous animals or insects here either, nature is a cozy place, at least when it's not winter. If the government don't have the funds err... don't want to use their finds, to take care of homeless people, they could give the populace a crash course on survival instead. I imagine if I was homeless that's how I'd live - that's how I'd conserve money and hope to get back up on my feet. You can make some money off of berries and fish too.
lol, wonder if that's a dream or fantasy...
Tis on teh watchlist!
Buses burning on the streets, barricades made with cement, the military shooting on the protesters, shit was really going down there, but fortunately it calmed down.
They did because they though that if it was round things would fall from the sides, and the ones opposing them where killed, in the name of god...
Wonder what things that hobo would post about...
Go on make a castle out of sand then live on it, if you have the will, it will work... that is how that sounds to me.
If is such a horrible government then unite and protest, the world had a wave of those recently with the reforms to education, and they worked, of course they will have to do them again, but it works.
"They could give the populace a crash course on survival instead." man now that is an outrageous idea if i have ever heard one, that is like a 101 class on how to gain the hate of your country and the neighbors too XD, BTW how much money you think you will be making selling fish and berries?.
That is less than a fantasy because i don't care enough to help the poor and the poorer than poor.
Holy hell, guess they never heard of that saying: "don't cry over spilled milk"...
Yupp, and some of the descendants of those same people still don't believe in dinosaurs!
He might become a hit, his life story might gain a huge audience; make him a digital star! Wonder if it's ever been done before. Though, understandably the normal hobo wouldn't have the resources or ability to do such things...
Check this out: http://worldnstyle.blogspot.se/2011/11/the-world-largest-castle-made-of-sand.html
The problem is people don't understand how bad they have it, or how bad it can get, we've been living in calm so long it's like we don't recognize the problem. Maybe you heard of the Husby riots last year: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Stockholm_riots
...but that's just a certain part of the populace. The riot gave a glimpse of trouble, but since then it's pretty much all just been forgotten. Nobody cares. Nobody wants to care. Nobody wants to do anything. Nobody has the hope or will to ignite a revolution over here, you could say society as a whole is a bit like Harry Potter before he learned his magic.
Hmm, a pike on 5-6kg = 20-30$, perch is a bit more valuable; those two are the most common. If you fish by the sea or in a river you can get better fish. For berries, cloudberries go for $5-10 per liter depending on the year. You can easily pick ten liters in an hour or two if you know your way around or find a good spot. Lingonberries and blueberries are everywhere, so those usually go for less than $1/liter. I've sold cloudberries a few years. Could sell fish too, but we just fish for ourselves, don't want to exploit the waterways.
Mmm
Well when the milk costs more than gas, then it is worth all the tears.
One day, one day...
Nice but it is still made out of sand...
Yeah that is why i tell you the whole world had a wave of those recently, it was not just Stockholm but everywhere, of course some places were way more organised than others, the problem is that Europe used a new phenomenon to organize its protest, they congregated mostly by using social media, meaning that once they were done, the existence of a group/body representing the movement was null, unlike what happened in Asia and South America when the riots were lead by organised groups of college students, laborers syndicates, and other social groups, that is a big difference you can identify who was involved, unlike the other seemingly random masses that got together without any apparent lead. You see that sounds, beautiful, nice and all, a bunch of people working together for something without a label on, but when is all said and done, the thing doesn't works, if in Asia and SA, they need to go out and take the streets again, they can use the already build social body to put a movement into action, on the other hand to put an example on this table, Spain was mostly a bunch of random people using Facebook, that in the end was almost anonymous, Argentina tried to do something like that, and fortunately their movement morphed into something similar to what its neighbors did.
An infrastructure is important yo!
Wow, i didn't know you were serious with this... ok, ok, fine lets see the first issues that come immediately, assuming that you manage to catch and collect 6kg of fish and ten liters of berries, where will you store that while you sell it? to who will you sell it? how will you sell it and move it around while you sell it? how will you avoid the regulations? and how will you make that viable, i mean that is 40$ all in all, for one batch of fish and berries, that i guess took not too much time, so you could got more (i am taking the collecting for granted), now you have to do this again for quite a few hours lets say 6 hours then you go and sell it somewhere in the morning, so by the afternoon it all went well, but you are a hobo, you have nothing, the questions i postulated before need to be solved before you can go and sell all those goods.
And you also need to make this in a way that you can continue doing it for some months highly possible years.
I will assume that the berries and fish are free to whoever wants to take them (specially the berries), so getting them is not a legal issue.
And i will also assume that there are costumer willing to buy this from a random homeless guy.
What will you do about competence? how will you make yourself credible enough for them to buy that from you? all this is part of my early question "how will you sell it and move it around while you sell it?" because i will also assume that you will go get some stones make a hatchet (oh! the irony http://cyberd.org/bury-the-hatchet.html the irony is so damn sweet Mr CyberD! oh what is this feeling! XD)chop some trees and make some containers out of wood, maybe even make a little cart, yeah that will take some time cant' go carrying around all those things using only your hands... Yeah that is a way of moving and storing things around, they will still rot, but is something (something bad), anyway how will you sell that? may i also assume that these hobos are masters entrepreneurs at selling things so none of their catches ever had to rot? how the hell did these highly competent persons become hobos anyways? they can sell fish and berries better than the stores themselves! XD.
Anyway lets assume that, that somehow works (i would love to still get some answers though...), they still have to re-join society in a formal way, and once they do, their past awaits for them, unless... they run away from their past debts, maybe travel to Sweden make a new life as immigrants... Oh wait... XD.
A little clarification about this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Stockholm_riots, man that riot you posted to, what a bad example, 50 to 100 rioters? man that is like 2 to 4 classrooms decided to go and revolt, can hardly count it as something in the same scale of what i was imagining, plus they got violent, there was a lack of demands, and an audience with the government, indeed, after reading the whole article, the whole incident can't be more obscure.
The whole article seems like a bunch of bored people that just wanted to go and do damage, no vision, no objective, just rioting for the sake of chaos, plus most of the damage was to zones inhabited by immigrants which makes the whole thing a load of hypocrisy (assuming that they wanted to uphold discrimination, then damaging the property of those they try to defend makes no sense, in this regard i agree with the analysis of Jerzy Sarnecki, saying that the shooting of that man was just an excuse), and lastly there is the incredible lack of organisation, and the fast approach to acts of violence, the whole things cant be taken seriously, indeed less than people joining together seeking change, the whole thing is more an example of an expression of unrest and discontent, but without organisation and an objective, without dialogue between the parts, then it all ends with just that, a bunch of headless riots.
I am sorry that it took me this long to read the whole article, but yeah your case is totally different from what happened with the rest of the world.
So they pass the gas and just milk the people dry huh.
Wasn't that the point, that you can make a castle out of sand and live in it? I had to do some intense Googling to find something that wasn't a simple artistic beach miniature. :P With enough will...
Hmm, on the other side of this digital divide people don't just sit inside! Protests via social media, that's just, that's not a protest, that's like... speaking into a box so nobody can hear you speak.
Good points. The fish might be the hardest to take care of, they'd need to be stored in a cool location, preferably gutted if you can't sell them immediately or freeze them... and a regular hobo might not be able to properly gut a fish, much less attain cooling aid. So, berries. You'd need buckets. Say you get two buckets, and can pick them almost full, you can then sell them to a reseller. There are plenty of people around the country who specialize in buying in berries, assuming there is one not too far away, that you can get to, you can go there, have the berries weighed and transfered to their buckets, and then given hard cash. If it's a good year, say you get $200 for 20kg (20kg should be less than 20 liters - cloud berries are heavy). Well maybe that's a bit optimistic, let's say $140. If you're smart, you'd water down the berries first btw, and add some extra weight with no added effort. The (cloud)berry season only lasts 1-2 months, but if you go in for earning money on berries, you should be able to make sufficient in one or two weeks of hard work (cloudberries grow on swamps/marches so they're usually not 'easy' picking, you'd need to take breaks; maybe skip a day or two each week if you're not in good shape)... maybe $140x10, $1400, for ten days work, at say 3-8 hours a day depending on what locations you find. That's not bad!
As for the fish, say you fish for yourself during this time, make up a fire and roast it immediately. A good meal at no cost; as mentioned there are blueberries everywhere, you could gather up a bowl of those for desert/breakfast/etc. If you know plants there's a lot more you could eat. In summer, you wouldn't starve in a Swedish forest.
As for legal issues, the berries are free (you aren't allowed to go near people's living quarters, but otherwise there's no such thing as 'no trespassing' over here). For fish, well uh... that probably wouldn't be legal. There are a few lakes that are free for all, but for most you'll need a fishing card for each specific district. But with 200k lakes it's not like there's anyone really checking more than the most popular ones (where there's also, coincidentally, the least fish).
I don't know about fish, but as far as berries go: they'll buy from anyone. Which might have something to do with why we rarely ever buy commercial jams. We have our own.
Haha man, enough with the fish! It won't work with fish! I get it! XD Berries won't rott though, cloudberries should last at least 2-3 days, stored in regular plastic buckets, as long as they aren't out in the direct sunlight. If you manage to get a metal bucket they'll probably last a week. If you can store them cold (like, in a bed of water/in a swamp), even longer. Fish get bad pretty fast though, I wouldn't eat anything that's been out for even an hour (specially not if it's still ungutted)...
lol man, genius idea! :D They could just throw away their identity; immigrate... those all get taken care of. Seems like there's never a lack of finances when it comes to immigration, even when we are knee-deep in debts.
Really though, apart from the question on debt (I surely hope they don't have a debt - if they lost everything I assume the debt was taken from their possessions instead), $1400 would be enough to get a cheap one-room apartment and pay for both rent and food a quarter year. It'd give them a running start! And if they invested in an icebox and started selling fish too, well then... there's hope. It'd take some work, but it'd be possible. If they make it work, well, that's all up to them/fate.
About the riot: I agree, it's as far from a revolution as it gets. What I'm saying is that something is stirring. but people don't want to see it, people don't want to take care of problems, people lost and thoughtless and don't know what they want, they just know they don't like things as they are and like to juggle around the blame and complain. That's the situation here.
Well they tried to do an socialist without infrastructure, so the were regulating the milk, and well it failed.
Is big enough to get inside of it, but still too small to live on it, plus it looks like an artistic castle to me (and the fact that it appears on a fashion web page doesn't really helps the... can i call that an article? is just photos without info...).
Oh they reunited by social media, but eventually took to the streets, then the whole movement crumbled, that is why i said that it needs something more stable as base for it to really work.
Good, good, now you are showing me some numbers, related to the earnings of successfully selling the berries, but that brings some problems, where will the Hobo rest while he farms the berries? and where did he got the buckets, also how is he transporting those 20 kg of berries?
I see so he is eating the fish (that was stealthily hunted) and selling the berries, fine, sounds like a plan that if done wrong will kill you but is something.
Ok, ok he wont be a fisher man by trade, still you need to acquire those metal-buckets first, so your first earnings will be invested into that, but before that, how where you storing and transporting those berries, was the hobo a psychic that moved them around with his mind powers? XD, I guess that since they grow close to water reserves (lakes/swamps) the hobo could get some easy access natural cooling, but still he now needs to take them from there, to a point where they will buy the berries, and thinking now about it i find it rare that they pay so well for such a common and unregulated product, truthfully such a plan only works in Sweden land of abundant (well priced)berries.
Well and what if the hobo is from Sweden? DUN DUN DUN.
Oh yeah the debt problem will definitively got them back to hobo land if it ever finds them surviving by farming berries. So for the sake of convenience (how convenient!) lets assume that they have no debts...
Oh a conclusion? good, good, lets recapitulate, they need $1400 to get an start, which secures them a one-room and food for a 1/4 of a year.
Those $1400 were made by 10 days of berry picking in the wilds, by selling 20kg at $140, that means that you collected 200 kg of berries and sold them in 10 days, give and take lets say it took more time than that, but the berries remained conserved (thanks to magic really, he hasn't buy a metal bucked to store his berries yet).
So lets get the "natural" cooling system that is water, we need to discount the containers from those $1400 first, however before he had those containers he was already carrying around 20 kg of berries? how? anyway.
However he has only 1-2 months to work on these berry picking business, so it is needed that Mr Hobo works more than 10 days, and for him to rest less than 2 days for these 2 months, in the meantime since he has no money yet he will be living in the wild, is the initial miraculous sell using his psychic powers which will give him the buckets and everything else, those magical initial $140, that he got using his awesome merchant prowess. So yeah for the sake of convenience all that went well.
He gets his buckets, his room, his $1400+/- what will he do for the rest of the year? for those 3/4ths? a but we have to discount the cost of the icebox, an affordable one so it wont pose a problem.
Will he become a fisherman now? current resources are enough buckets to carry 20 kg of berries, an icebox, and a room for 1/4 of the year, that's 3 months... ah this is important, this guy seems to be an expert at sales, so there's is that... (otherwise this would have never worked), you know for the sake of convenience lets say that he also has that rudimentary stone hatched...
Mmm.
Yeah the article didn't say much. I entertained the possibility it was a photoshop, but it looked like an actual sand castle with an extraordinarily stable foundation, maybe mixed with more than just water hmm... and I'm sure you can live in it, if you really want to, maybe dig out a little room behind that doorway... on that note btw, I seem to remember a lot of structures from the past, around the world, were made with not just mud but also regular sand, made to structures that'd resemble sandstone. Don't have any links to back this up though...
Aha.
Resting: in the forest. If the weather is warm, then pretty much any dry area. If the weather is cold: under a pine or home-made windbreak (you don't need any tools to make a basic one, assuming there's drift wood or whatever-you-call-the-wood-you-find-away-from-beaches lying around). If the ground's too hard, you could probably find some rags lying around, or ask people for some, I can't imagine people wouldn't have rags to throw away if you go door-knocking. Or you could stash up on hay - warm and cozy. Not so cozy when wet, but still warm.
Transporting: by hand, though that'd be tiresome indeed. If you can get a backpack, that'd be easier. If you can get a bike (maybe steal one), even better. If you manage to sell just two buckets you could buy a bike or rent a car (cheapest I know of is at $23 per day - 20km mileage/gas included). Say you rent a car: with previously mentioned price that wouldn't cost you more than 4kg berries. You could stash up berries and rent a car only on the second or third day, or maybe pick a little extra during those days and rest when they're delivered. This latter part assumes you have a license btw, if you're a hobo without a license, maybe you could find someone with a license willing to help you out for a fee, or maybe even transport the berries free of charge (I'm thinking: priests, missionaries, etc - I doubt they get asked for a favor like this often.... if ever).
Buckets: a regular white plastic bucket costs $1 at cheapest. If you find buckets second-hand you might get them for half or less. If you're a sneaky hobo you could get some old paint buckets for free, clean them out, and use those, or steal a few buckets from outside a market (in the right season there's often a stack of them outside the door - advertising the product).
Yeah, if he really doesn't know anything about nature it'd be a pretty bad plan. This is all assuming he has some basic skills in said area (as I should mention most Swedes do). To fish btw, you only need a toothpick, a wire and worms. A piece of wire is easy enough to find lying around the shoreline of a popular fishing place, those get tangled and thrown away often. A toothpick shouldn't be difficult to attain. And worms, dig it.
lol, Psychic Hobo, coming to a movie theatre near you!
Well coudberries are well-priced particularly because they aren't always easy to pick, so this is still based a bit on luck (how well they grow this specific year, and if you stumble upon any good spots, and if anybody's been there before you) but also common hobo knowledge: if you've lived in a place where cloudberries are common, then you'll know where to get them. A lot of people are pretty lazy, even if they have berries growing right behind their back porch they don't bother picking them. Which is probably why the resellers have started taking in workers from other countries, like Thailand, to pick our berries. They don't know shit about Sweden, they occasionally pick the berries raw, or rip up the entire plant with the berry (which happens easily if you try to pick them when they're raw), litter the forests and pick in people's backyards (we had a neighbor who had his potato patch picked - either by some cheeky bastards or they thought that since cloudberries are game, so is everything). They get paid incredibly little for their work and sometimes don't even have enough to make it back home. I read an interview where one spoke of how they'd thought that cloudberries were like apples, and whatever-their-pay-was-per-kg it seemed like a pretty sweet deal. But it's really not a sweet deal for anyone, they don't get paid enough, and good cloudberry spots are wrecked - if you rip up the plants then that's it - it takes a long time for cloudberries to spread, and they only grow in favorable conditions. But back to the topic of hobo's...
What if the hobo is from Sweden, you ask? :L It'd all work perfectly! ;)
On topic of debts, I don't know how it works in other countries: here if you have debt (official, excluding loan sharks etc) and can't pay, the government takes what you have, and nullifies the rest. Considering they are homeless, they might hopefully thus also be debt-free.
An easy way to store berries in a cold location would be: find a cave, or a hole, an old fox den you can dig out maybe. But yes, $140/20kg assumes it's a decent year and the price is somewhere around $7/kg (which is a quite normal price - last year it was up at $8). $1400 in ten days assumes the weather is OK, he feels OK, manages to somehow transport the berries (see above) and works hard at it. Though, if he does happen to stumble upon a great spot, he might be able to pick as much as a full weeks worth of berries in a single day, or more. I've been out with the family and an uncle and wife (six people) a couple of years, same spot, and we picked a bucket each. That's at least 60kg. If not, it'd easily be watered out to be. IOW, if the hobo is fortunate it could amount to a lot more than $1400. The only really risky element in this scenario is transport and fishing luck. If he doesn't quickly get any fish, scavenging for food - depending on area - might take some time.
Alright, all clear? All good? Sounds possible so far? Onto the life he can make for himself with those $1400 (or more/less): he'll need to get a job, or make a job for himself, or turn to criminal activity. He can buy clothes, he can wash-up; he can eat. He has a few months, best case a year or more, worst case just one or two months - to find something that will earn him further profit. What he can do all depends on his qualifications, experiences, etc - but considering he's made it this far, he seems like a pretty resolute and clever hobo, and I hope all goes well for him. If he doesn't have bigger plans or potential, he could start out with a job at a phone support company. Or a cleaner. There are lots of jobs if you aren't fastidious.
As for being an expert in sales, selling berries is really a piece of cake, you just sell the berries. The price is decided beforehand, you just get to the reseller and let them weigh the buckets, ???, profit. Not saying this'd work for all hobos, but assuming I was homeless myself, and there were no other jobs available, and I had nobody to stay with, that's the route I'd take.
Oh i know about those structures (i used to study civil engineering once upon a time XD), the mass ends solidified in one big chunk of chalked brick which is made basically out of mud, is highly resistant to heat, earthquakes, is impermeable(water resistant), and a really cheap material, however you cant build tall structures with it because it cant handle the weight, so while is moderately good for large (are wise) buildings (talking about cost), it is extremely inefficient for our modern days when building grow upwards, plus overall having one big brick as your main foundation/wall/everything is really unsafe, a crack in a wall may put the whole thing in danger to fall to pieces, plus we have better more safe, and resistant models nowadays.
But that is worlds apart from a sand castle, and to tell you the truth it still looks like a merely cosmetic castle, also sand is only good for construction if you mix it with something else to make a paste like substance, and those cases, sand ends being only the additive and not the principal element of the paste, thus a building made out of sand is just asking for it.
That's why i tell you nice, but still made out of sand...
Resting: That is what most hobos do, and they don't see well rested at all... i will trust you on this one, assume that the weather is good enough, and that the insects are not obnoxious.
Transporting: He is now stealing bikes!? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd63P7mYXzo
So you appear out of nowhere and they lend you a car just like that as long a s you have a licence and the money? crazy place you live in... but ok, i still can't believe that those berries sell that well (each bucket has 20 kg of berries i presume?).
Buckets: Mmmh why was i under the impression that those buckets would be bigger? oh right because those berries are selling so damn well, but oh well, if they do they do.
Good, good, so the hobo knows how to cook fish, that is perfect.
What? everything is not game? only the berries? poor berries...
common hobo knowledge shouldn't encompass forestall knowledge that makes no sense.
Suddenly your idea of berry picking sounds horrible, but anyway.
But he can't be an immigrant in Sweden if he is a native...
After they ruin you the debt is chased to the nearest family member, because that makes sense right? fuck the system.
Oh good so all the Hobos(from born in Sweden) are also debt-free, good to know, then there is no problem in that regard, (assuming that he has no sharks waiting for him).
Ah yeah we gave him a backpack to carry the berries, everything else is on luck, and how the current berry price is at the moment... however the concept of a lucky hobo sounds contradictory, but anyways.
Na he is going to be fine, for storage he has those buckets he stole, and for transportation he has that bike that... he also stole, and well he is a lucky hobo, so he found a great berry spot... right...
Hold it those $1400+/- are for rent and/or food (since he is living on fish lets assume he doesn't buys food), so that money is for rent, cleaning products (because he can't still be a dirty hobo), and maybe some clothing (assuming it all lasted), other than that he has no money.
What? he can last a year(best case) on $1400!? is official people have no right to bitch about Sweden being an expensive country to live in. And assuming this, i will also assume that those informal jobs are also well paid, enough to compete with the highly profitable berry picking business.
Well damn man, sounds like you solved the social problem of homelessness in Sweden, using the insane market price of berries, and a convenient time of the year, congratulations, of course they also need luck.
We are pretty much done, tell this to the next hobo you meet (as long as you are in Sweden).
There is a problem here when i said. "tell this to the next hobo you meet (as long as you are in Swede)" i forgot that there are no real hobos in Sweden...
large (are wise)? :P I guess that's area. Yeah, our building techniques have become all the more evolved, but I've always got a fascination for anything you can build straight outta nature.
As for sand castles btw, it just struck me how glass is made of sand: only sand, no additives. ;) Surely you could build a castle out of glass! To the workings of the mind there is no limit!
Resting: True that. Yeah the insectal threat while cloud-berry picking would be mosquitoes. They grow alongside cloudberries. They're like their friends and guardians! Or more like parasites that feed off of the cloudberries goodwill and savorable flavor... but anyway, if you know your plants, and have pants, they should be tolerable. They're also pretty nutritious if you'd like to turn the food chain around and eat a few...
Transport: Haha. Yeah, you need nothing more to rent a car - anyone can do it. The license is the important part. Ah, no each bucket is 10 liters, so can fit a bit over 10kg. Course there are probably larger buckets but that would be hella heavy to carry around! The ones the resellers store the berries in are probably on 20-30kg.
Buckets: Well picking berries aint a picnic, if you could fill a 20kg bucket just like that... man I'd be making boatloads of money each summer! Kinda contradicting myself here, what I mean to say is: smaller buckets are easier to fill; easier to carry; much better motivation. A wise hobo would have a few buckets to transfer berries to while picking, if there's a lot, to save on potential burden.
Huh?
Yeah if he's an immigrant, the berry-picking route may be difficult.
Mmm, as for cleaning products, he could save up a bit on that. Most apartments come with free water, and they already have chloride and all kinds of shit mixed in with the water so you don't really need anything more than the water to clean up. Well, if you do, you could just get some blue clay from a lake or some Yarrow from a field. Grows all over. Clothing; rent, yupp, money required.
That'd be a bit optimistic. :D Nah I meant if he has a lucky streak he could earn plenty more than $1400, maybe enough to last the year through! Sweden is an expensive country to live in if you live in/near the big cities, but if you look around you should be able to find an apartment for around $100/month. That is incredibly cheap btw, but I have a friend who rents a two-room basement apartment at that price, so it's possible. With collective living you might get cheaper.
Aw yeah, Cyberdevil for minister! The people've got the problems; he's got the answers!! Course if this idea starts being exploited it won't work that much longer... I mean, people might start chaining their bikes even in the suburbs. O_o
Fo shizzle. I don't know where this debate is leading anymore, this idea on potential berry-picking ventures seems to have spiraled into an ultimate solution, and hmm... where were we going with this anyway?
Yeah area XD, well all the things we build our buildings with are from nature, they just go through a couple of processes...
Well you can make the walls out of a special kind of strengthened glass (and it would look oh so good), but the support of the structure would need to be made out of something else other than glass.
Lets say that he doesn't mind the insect bites, and forget that we ever considered him turning into an insectivore.
So you give them the licence, the money and that's it? do they know that if you ever run away with the car, there is no way to contact you or find you since, well you are a hobo? XD.
Well i assumed down the road, that he was either really strong to go around walking with 20 kg of berries, or that the re-seller wasn't too far away so it was easier for him to make various rounds between his stock and the store.
Is that "Huh?" because i said that hobo knowledge doesn't needs to have forestall knowledge, or because i said that immigrants being abused while picking berries kinda makes your idea to sound bad (in the sense that the price of the berries is not the same)?
Really what the hell are they doing to your water? in that case he will need to buy bottled water, or go to some clean lake or river...
Hell no! this hobo is going to buy himself 3 moths of soap and use it, he will buy toothpaste and a toothbrush, that is why he got the money to begin with! while he is at it, he must get himself a deodorant, give him the pleasure to feel clean man!
Of course a full year takes a lot of money everywhere, specially if you live in a city, however those rents you gave are indeed cheap, too cheap.
Cyberdevil for minister! he advocates for bike stealing! wait what? XD. But there is a critical flaw with this, the plan only works when the berries are in season, and if the person doing the farming is lucky enough to find plenty of them, so it has 2 restrictions, a time limitation, and random chance that depends on nature (and i guess you would be against the idea of manipulating nature to secure the growth of berries...).
"where were we going with this anyway?"
Oh don't worry man, i got your back in this, the central theme of this discussion are these 3 thingies:
1- Empathy for those in need (humans-animals-nature), i admitted that mine is really really small, while you want to sell some jolly cooperation, and even thought your government has plans to take care of those hobos, and you could just send them there, you decided to formulate this idea which is based plenty on the concept of "as long as you have the will, you can do things".
2- "As long as you have the will, you can do things" well i never said this, but i am getting each time closer and closer to become a believer of determinism, meaning that i don't believe in a free will (but this doesn't needs to end in fatalism), on the other hand free will is all over your ideals, and you use this as the base for a lot of your propositions, however in this particular one, i wanted to say that there is more getting in the way of a person than just wanting to success (when did we talked about this? as an example this explains why the house made out of sand is relevant in all of this), and while we have this position you kinda agree that you would only donate those clothes and meal coupons to the individuals who showed that they had their shit together, while my case worked over the general hobo populace (and that makes me look like someone who really cares, even if in the end i really don't care).
3- And finally, spontaneity, to do things without thinking too much about them, to do the natural thing, this is a hidden idea that is all over this conversation and that was not explicit, it was explicit other messages but not here, however it is also here, i don't want to say that Luffy was here (no wait he did appeared, on See That Gull – Part II), oh well long story short, the 3rd idea debated here is doing this spontaneously, like going to the wilds and hunt for berries, VS thinking about an infrastructure and then go with it.
So is those 3 things, do you care about the problems others have? If so who should be helped, and is it their fault? and lastly if you are helping them what really helps them and how?
The 4th theme was about procrastination, and we already solved that.
Guess I should say traditional building methods. :P Processing's useful and all, but there's still nothing quite like a regular oldskool homely hand-made timbered cottage with manually crafted glass windows that shimmer a little in the sunlight! Modern-day perfection pfft, they knew 'cozy' and 'comfortable' and 'creative' way better way back when.
I'd think you could make everything in glass, as long as it's thick enough; as long as there are no corners or seams. With the right form the pressure could be evenly distributed, both between floors and walls - I'd think a circular shape would work best, like a glass jar, those things are incredibly durable.
Alright (though I usually eat a few mosquitoes every summer, for real, they're not bad - they don't carry malaria up North btw).
Well you have to sign a couple of papers of course, but nah, there are no other demands that you own certain estate, have certain finances, etc. These are gas station cars btw, cheapest kind, with a regular rental it may be different. I assume they rely on their insurance if something goes wrong, IOW if the hobo drives away with the car. And I assume not many hobos rent cars and decide to drive away with them, for some reason, or there certainly would be further limitations in being allowed to rent one...
Ah, if circumstances are fortunate, that could be the case. If not, alternative methods of transport have been detailed...
I have no idea any longer what I meant by that huh. :/ But as for the immigrants being used to pick berries - they get provision based on the deals they have with the reseller. Maybe they get flown in and have housing/transport arranged, maybe they have to pay for transport via the reseller, I assume different resellers have different contracts, but all the resellers are looking to do is make more money themselves so of course those terms are all in their favor, the 'base price' is the same for everyone, with slight differences depending on region and supply/demand. Some people driver over to Finland to sell their berries there since they're worth more, but that wouldn't be profitable if you don't live near the border or have very large amounts.
Well it's the same everywhere, they put all those chemicals in the water to make it drinkable, but we run it through a filter first anyway. Gets rid of that 'artificial' taste. You can use salt instead of toothpaste, and baking soda instead of deodorant. :P Gotta be economic man! (I actually started using baking soda myself btw, it's great because it doesn't just mask the smell, it gets rid of bacteria and increases the body's pH value at the same time. Woot! Can be used as soap too, and toothpaste, and if you mix in a couple of dl in a warm bath you can get rid of a headache too (provided it's the tension-type).
Yepp, in the city it'd be harder, because in the city: there are no cloudberries. Not even near the big city.
Haha, well if you're homeless and starving, I'd say you probably need the bike more than its rightful owner. :P If you're a rightful hobo you could hand it back once you're done, too... yupp, that's a flaw indeed. And yes indeed I am against the idea of modifying nature to secure the growth of berries. Primarily because if you do that, it becomes entirely about profit. Secondarily because a large portion of animals rely on these berries to survive too. Thirdly because cloudberries require very specific conditions to grow (which is why Sweden is one of few countries where they do grow) and it would be hard/expensive to replicate. So anyway6, yes: this route would be based on a good deal of luck and circumstance, but for any hobo who has the ability to go through with it, who is a hobo in the right place (well even hobos can travel btw), at the right time (even hobos can wait and get by!) it is a valid method of getting a life back together again.
You really have got it covered! The concise and conclusive compilations of the central aspects of this conversation! Nice.
1. True, but as for government: I feel they take care of hobos the wrong way. They can provide them with food and shelter, true, in moderate doses, but they don't actually help them get off the streets.
2. Good points. Think of it like this though, people who make it big (or make it wherever they want to make it/do whatever they want to do - assuming they aren't inevitably hindered by things like law/natural disasters/etc), either make it because they just kept going or because they were just lucky. A person who stops mid-way or starts thinking maybe it's hopeless or doesn't even have the courage to get started - probably won't make it. So as I see it willpower is a central aspect of getting somewhere! Of course 'everything is possible' doesn't apply to really everything, but to many things; even things that might first seem impossible: mountains too high to climb, oceans to wide to cross... now, they've all been climbed and crossed. By people who had that willpower! It's a motto I'd like to nourish and apply to all facets of my own live that I want to strengthen!
3. Mmm, true. Spontaneity and planning go hand in hand when you do them well, too! I mean, you've gotta plan ahead, yet not worry ahead: live for the moment. Maybe I should rephrase that a bit and post as a quote hmm..
Well, to conclude, I care, but I also care about myself - my life - certain facets of this life, principles, traditions, wants and needs etc, and sometimes those two aspects conflict. I don't believe we have a right to help in the sense that we must help, but that it's great if we do help, when we can and want, regardless of who's fault is is. That third aspect is a bit harder to answer. One potential theory's been explicity exploited above!
Yeah, and keep doing!
Oh sure, except for those pesky natural disasters and fires that may get you living in the streets just because you didn't wanted to use reinforced concrete... is almost like asking for it.
Hell no, it would break in a sea of glass shrapnel, i wonder what the cadavers from such a thing would look like? if someone ever does something like that, i guess we will get the opportunity to see it! oh lets do it for science (and morbidity...).
Still not gonna risk it, he is already a hobo, if he catches something he has no health care, that's just what he needs getting sick.
But his hobo already steals bikes XD, a car is a more sweet deal...
That is the idea behind deodorant, to be more than a perfume... sure replace toothpaste with salt (because salinity kills bacteria, that is why the death sea has no life in it, except that it does)... no wonder hobos have bad breath.
Only if you are lucky, and they are hobos... the irony.
1- A government program should include more than food/shelter, it should have education programs and a job program, usually linked with the employment office, and that is under the standards of countries with actual hobos, Sweden of course should be more advanced.
2- Luck plays a bigger role than you think, for example the luck of being born in a rich household or a poor one, of haveing a good education, etc.
3- If you did a good plan, then there shouldn't be a need to worry.
Oh you are selfish! XD. You are amoral/ borderline unethical! XD ( I don’t believe we have a right to help in the sense that we must help). Spontaneity and planning go hand in hand, sure i agree with that.
Haha yeah we keep procrastinating but over different things.
BTW spread this it may save some lives http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/05/140518164335.htm?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencedaily+%28Latest+Science+News+--+ScienceDaily%29
Apparently forest fires don't happen enough here in Sweden, so the government is going to burn down a few thousand acres under 'controlled circumstances', to help keep rare species of flora and fauna alive. Not that this is relevant or anything. As for timber versus concrete, would be good if modern buildings were more fire-proof, but they're rarely ever made of only concrete. All the paneling and plastic padding and what-not burns way better than timber does, not to mention it's full of toxins so if you get trapped in one of those houses when they're ablaze it could be sudden death! I suppose fires that try to get in might have a hard time, but if someone accidentally starts a fire on the inside then that'll spread like wildfire. Also concrete is usually not quite as cozy, creative and comfortable. It has plenty of use, no doubt, but I'd rather go with a timbered cottage anyday.
I disbelieve! But we probably won't ever find out for reals...
What could you possible catch by eating mosquitoes? :/ It's probably a bigger danger to eat raw berries, what with the potential miniature tapeworms (Echinococcus multilocularis) forest animals might've shit over them. Kinda keeps me away from eating berries in the wild, even though the food administration considers the risk so rare they advice people to not bother caring.
lol, might be some trouble for the car companies then...
You mean to be more like a perfume? Well that is great, but there's that one other downside to deo, apart from common health issues you may get: allergies. I mean, not everyone can handle that smell! There's actually toothpaste with salt, and with baking soda, should speak for something huh?
Mmm.
1 - Yeah, it really should!
2 - Indeed, just look at people like 50 Cent, Eminem, Yelawolf (who barely had $20 to his name at one point), etc - they made it! Look at all those handicapped people 'running' the olympics. I mean: even if you don't have the most optimal circumstances laid out for you, anything's possible! (metaphorically speaking of course) You could argue that they needed luck to make it, rather than willpower, so yeah, you could say everything is based on luck if that's what you believe, but if you want to turn luck around you just have to keep going. I don't believe in forced destiny.
3 - True that.
Haha man, I'd rather you'd call out the honest and kind-hearted elements in that reasoning. :P Well let me explain my reasoning behind that: I don't believe we must help. Right now, for example, Sweden is shoving out tons of money to help distant countries. We have a pretty large debt. We have a lack of financial aid in a lot of parts of society. If we care about us, we can build up a strong foundation to care about others. If we can only care for either us or for others, I'd opt for the first option, it's like how they advice you to put on that oxygen mask on planes yourself before helping anyone around you. Gotta care for yourself first.
Ah, that's good news indeed! The world'd be a better place without bladder issues!
Oh well that is more of a problem of their engineers/architects not being up there with the current times of the eco-friendly movement.
Concrete can be cozy, is all on the skills of the designer.
(you don't want to know what a body crushed and covered in shattered glass looks like? XD)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt4JWHRFKoI
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/6282/20140501/snakes-mosquitoes-humans-biggest-killers.htm
And that's why there are various marks of deo.
Yeah there probably are and they also have way more than just salt and baking soda (plus if you brush with mostly salt the salt crystals, that are not round may chip your teeth, this problem is also in some toothpaste too).
Is not forced destiny (i don't believe in destiny, but i also don't believe in free will, however believing in free will even if it doesn't exist has its advantages http://www.theemotionmachine.com/5-scientific-reasons-you-should-believe-in-free-will what is more by default our brains are made to believe in the illusion of a free will), is a the sum of various circumstances, which then lead to your actions. Well as a counter argument look at the millions that don't make it...
XD haha.
The whole country seem to be doing better than your average country on this planet earth here on the XXI century though hehe. But sure it makes sense, however it is still selfish (but that is just human nature, so it is ok).
Na i just want to spread the debunked myth of people believing that urine is actually sterile, i think i have even seen it in movies, and a few animes... however this is the 1st article i see that actually has proof that, indeed urine is not sterile.
True true, with the right design I even like plastic every once in a while (before you ask, I'll take a metal computer frame over plastic any day). It's nice the Eco-friendly movement is coming around again, but people were way ahead of their time in the past. Our summerhouse (dated 1890) is timbered (plank paneling added later on, by the owner before us I think, it's had around 6-7 owners), isolated with sawdust and moss, with a few windows still made of handmade glass... it's pretty friendly! I mean that as: it's cozy too. That's how I'd like to live all year, but it does have some cons when it comes to heating, keeping drafts out etcetc. We spend the summers there (mostly) and then go back South to where the floors are sticky textured plastic, the doors thin crappy masonite-ish material, the inner walls plaster so you need special screws to hang stuff up. There's a lot of crappy building practices used to cheapen things up. Timber houses nowadays are hellishly expensive, but back when there was plenty of wood it was the cheaper choice - cheaper and better! And it's still good, it lasts a long time, it breathes, it doesn't have the same problems with humidity as say plastic and plaster, wood is a pretty good material overall! Apart from that thing with fire. I like how it smells; looks; feels once it's all planed and ready. Mmmm... pine...
lol no, I'm just saying I'm sure you can make a steady hard-to-break glass house with sufficient resources and optimal architectural designs! I imagine it'd cost a lot to have a different structure than the normal frame-type build with flat surfaces on all them glass sheets.
Those aren't Swedish mosquitoes though! (man I am glad I don't live where those live O_i)
True true. Not all are bad.
Not all of them! All you really need is something to keep the baking soda together, to make it into a usable smoothlike mass. Here's a recipe: http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Toothpaste
Yeah I know about the salt crystals. If you want to whiten your teeth they can do some good, but if you're unlucky, use too much etc, yeah, not good. One way'd be to dissolve salt in warm water and use that as your 'paste'. Ah, didn't know commercial pastes had that side-effect, anything you've used yourself?
That counter-argument: those who didn't make it, well I suppose a lot of them just didn't have luck on their side, and the rest of them: just didn't have the willpower. Inspiring read! Yeah I think it's like a cycle of positivity, the more you go for it, the further you get: what comes around goes around.
It's an illusion I tell ya! Well, it could be worse, but what's aggravating is how easily it could be so much better! We don't need to live like this! But I'ma not get into a rant on that again. Indeed, it is care for self-ish!
I hadn't heard there was a myth like that. Good knowing though.
Mmmh i am pretty much neutral on the frame of my PC, i want a good balance between sturdy and not heavy(in case i have to move it around).
I agree wood is an incredible material for construction, probably even worse than fires, termites could probe a worse problem, but well if you are fine with some "good" extermination i guess it stops being a problem.
Well after the industrial revolution, and with the second coming of capitalism people just assumed that the earth was infinite and that they could just eat it away without it ever ending, and they were wrong, yet economist sometimes try to pass their office as a science, an insult to everything and everybody coming from those that forgot that the planet has limits.
You could make it, the problem is that unlike wood, clay (construction clay the one we mentioned before), brick, reinforced concrete (even if it sounds like this it is great because it combines the sturdiness of concrete with the flexibility of steel!), etc. unlike all this materials it so just happens that Glass is fucking hard and not flexible at all, so it just takes one really lame earth quake and the thing starts to break since it is unable to bend, after all glass is just a enormous crystal, and if you made it out of smaller crystals then it becomes less sturdy, so just standing puts too much stress on the building.
Oh interesting seems to cover a lot of what normal toothpaste does, mmmh however the addition of salt is optional (in this recipe) and exist merely to diminish the effects of being too sensitive to the baking soda...
Nop, nothing i have used myself, and is just some that come with them, but is a good idea to check out which ones may just be overly pointy, the less squared the crystal the better (and weaker too, is one thing or another...).
Haha funny, i read it as "if you believe in free will you try to take more responsibility".
Haha got it, it is all a smoke screen.
But is that selfish nature what in the end promotes corruption, to only care for your own plan first.. the irony...
Yeah and a nasty myth to boot!
Plastic has the lightness benefit weighing in its favor, metal the stability. And also: heavy metal. Huzzah!
Well we don't have termites here. There are plenty of other insects who like to eat wood but they don't like wood in good shape, they prefer it when it's damp or starting to rot, etc. Low air humidity & slow tree growth = pretty reliable timber. Up North at least.
Definitely.
But if it's just one huge piece of glass, not made up of individual segments? In case of an earthquake, a marble wouldn't break, it'd just roll around. I'm thinking: round architecture would make glass a lot more reliable. Course this would all be totally nu-economic and probably not that comfortable to live in anyway, but I think it'd be possible! The thicker the glass, the harder it is to make shards out of it, only proportionately (in proportion to their overall size) thin plates break into a million pieces.
Yes, you don't need salt if you have baking soda, but it is another (I suppose a bit less efficient) option. Salt cleans out bacteria, but I don't think it has the same effect on the pH balance, for example...
Ah. Yeah, definitely.
lol, being responsible sounds like a benefit though!
Yupp. Yeah, it can turn to that... I guess if selfishness benefits yourself it's OK, if it benefits yourself by hurting/abusing others, not so. That's the line.
Word.
How metal is that!?
Oh then you have pretty much great conditions for wood/"organic" buildings.
Nop, glass is one huge crystal, that is why it is so hard, and that is why it is also so inflexible, and what makes buildings to survive earthquakes is their flexibility. However there are plans to make invisible concrete in the future so there is something to look for. Sure enough the metal bars would still be visible (and these metal bars are in the end a bunch of breaded smaller metal bars, that is why is so flexible and resistant, if you can make the same with glass without it breaking then you may be onto something, but would that even be glass?).
But a lot of bacteria is resistant to salinity...
Of course it is, but it shows the differences of visions that we both have while reading the same thing XD.
But what if is benefiting yourself by ignoring the others? isn't inaction also an action?
It's heavy. Heavy metal. The pedal to the metal kind of heavy never settles keeps on revving like a seven liter engine!
That we do! :)
Ah well, we'll never get an answer! Sure there are some pretty reliable fusions between glass and plastic (like the bullet-proof kind) but in the end none of it's actual glass any longer. :/ That invisible concrete sounds pretty interesting!
Hmm, bacteria that lives in the mouth; harms the teeth? I hope not...
Indeed, so many people in this world; so many different impressions of it! Some people even get religious. :P
Well if you start thinking of lack of action as purposefully harming, there'd be no end to it, you'd be purposefully harming all the time, 24/7, there's only so much you can do (even if you did all you could), but there's no limit to what you can't do!
Now that is heavy!
It does sound interesting.
Some do, some do not, some are vital for your mouth health, some just are there, it depends of the bacteria.
Some people even get crazy religious.
Yep that is what i am saying we are purposefully harming all the time, 24/7.
Word.
For real.
Well I was hoping salt would get rid of the bacteria that harms the teeth; not all of it. That's one of the flaws with some of the more popular brands of toothpaste btw, they get rid of everything. It's the same with antibiotics too, they don't discriminate, they get rid of good and bad bacteria alike, leaving your immune system totally helpless if you happen to catch some other virus when your attempting to cure whatever you got in the first place, but this is all a different topics...
Yeah, it's crazy!
Haha man, I'll keep living in my illusion of kindness and benevolence to the extent of my abilities!
Lol well salt is far away from killing all bad and good bacteria, and that's why you have a bunch of other things to deal with them.
That is another clue that lets me know that Sweden is actually doing well, you can maintain that illusion without reality just appearing and trashing it down on a daily basis XD.
And that... could be a benefit! Depending on what it gets rid of...
I guess so. :) Should appreciate the present a bit more, not just recall the recent past and how much better things used to be.
Well the sea is salty as hell and is full of life so yeah.
Appreciation is important, but so is looking to the future towards things better than both present and past.
But the dead sea is dead!
Amen!
The dead sea is full of life man!
Really? My bad... the name is just full of specific lifeless implication. Stumbled upon http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/09/110928-new-life-dead-sea-bacteria-underwater-craters-science/
Yeah the name is misleading XD.
It's alive!!!